Former Obama White House attorney says ‘it was a mistake’ to deal with Epstein and she regrets it
By Annie Grayer, Andrew Kaczynski, Em Steck, CNN
(CNN) — Former Obama White House counsel Kathy Ruemmler said she regrets interacting with the late convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and believes now it was a mistake, according to opening remarks she delivered to House committee investigators as part of a closed-door interview.
“If I knew then what I know now about who Epstein really was, I never would have accepted an initial meeting with him. It was a mistake to deal with him, and I regret it,” Ruemmler said, according to prepared remarks provided to CNN. “But many people assume that given everything we know now about Epstein, everyone who dealt with him before his 2019 indictment must have known everything then. In my case, that assumption is completely wrong.”
Ruemmler was called to testify voluntarily by the Republican-led House Oversight Committee for a closed-door interview as part of the congressional probe into Epstein after numerous news stories scrutinized her ties to the disgraced financier. Reporting from CNN’s KFILE detailed the extent of her relationship with Epstein, including that she was among a small group of advisers to help him ward off legal and reputational risk during the final years of his life.
Ruemmler did not specifically address how she sought to help Epstein protect his reputation in her opening remarks but did say, “even though I wasn’t his lawyer, he sought my advice from time to time, as many people do. I was friendly with him in that context, and I dealt with him in my ordinary course — casually, informally, and sometimes irreverently.” She also said that Epstein was never her client.
She said that she first met Epstein in 2014 — and explained how she came to learn about how Epstein pled guilty in 2008 to charges that included the solicitation of a minor for prostitution along with other offenses and why she continued to engage with him.
“Epstein told me that, while a small number of the women he had solicited for prostitution turned out to be under the age of consent, he had not known that any of them were underage. Epstein appeared to be quite open about the conduct leading to his conviction, or so he led me to believe. He expressed remorse, embarrassment, and regret for his conduct, which he described as paying money for sex to women he believed to be over the age of 18,” Ruemmler said in her opening statement.
“Notwithstanding his conviction, by the time I met him, he had active relationships with an extensive group of respected professionals in business, academia, politics, and the arts. And given the nature of my law practice, I routinely dealt with compromised or controversial people, including those facing criminal or other allegations of wrongdoing,” she said, while adding that she “at no time” endorsed or excused the conduct to which Epstein pled guilty.
Ruemmler called Epstein a “masterful liar” — and also said that she “did not see any evidence of ongoing criminal conduct or misconduct of any kind by Epstein.”
She said that, “if I had seen or heard any evidence suggesting that he was abusing women or girls, I would have immediately reported him to law enforcement.”
Ahead of the interview, Ruemmler told CNN, “I will answer any questions that they think will help their inquiry. So, again, I’m looking forward to meeting with the committee members today.”
House Oversight Chair James Comer said prior to the start of the interview, “she’s a very powerful person that was probably more involved in working with him to rehabilitate his image, which I would argue has made it more difficult for him to be held accountable. So, very concerning. We want to know what she knew and we have a lot of questions about the extent of their relationship.”
The top Democrat on the panel, Rep. Robert Garcia, echoed, “the fact that she continued to engage, give advice, was clearly a friend, and in fact was one of the folks that he was talking to consistently in the last phase of his life I think is really significant. We’ve said from day one that we don’t care if someone is a Republican or a Democrat or what the relationship is, we want truth and answers, and I think that’s what we’ll get throughout the day today.”
As the interview was ongoing, Garcia questioned Ruemmler’s credibility and said it was “problematic” for Republicans to allow her to testify without forcing her to be under oath.
“I think it is difficult to see how she is being completely truthful in there with the answers that she is giving the committee. And the transcript of course will come out,” Garcia told reporters
In February, Ruemmler announced she would resign by June 30 from her job as chief legal officer at Goldman Sachs amid fallout from the Justice Department’s release of Epstein documents.
But Democrats have pressed Goldman Sachs CEO David Solomon over his reported effort to retain the bank’s top lawyer months after she announced she would resign.
Scrutiny after Epstein files’ release
The Justice Department’s release of millions of pages of Epstein documents provided fresh details about the relationship between the Ruemmler and Epstein.
Amid the hundreds of email exchanges reviewed by CNN that discuss Epstein’s legal battles and reputational problems, there are other more personal communications between the two, including plans for a proposed trip to Epstein’s island and gifts he’d given her.
In some of their back-and-forth messages, Ruemmler discussed personal matters in her life, expressed gratitude for their “friendship,” and concluded her messages with “xo” and “xoxo.”
“There has been much media attention around my email communications with Epstein and gifts that he gave me. Many of my emails with Epstein have been taken out of context or do not mean what some have speculated or suggested. With that said, given what I now know about him, I wish I had never dealt with him at all, much less emailed with him,” Ruemmler said in her opening remarks.
On the gifts specifically, Ruemmer said, “I didn’t ask for them, didn’t need them, and didn’t view them as particularly personal or consequential. I accepted them graciously, as I saw no reason not to. But the gifts weren’t important to me, and I declined to accept some of them. In any event, nothing he gave me caused me to deal with him any differently than I otherwise would have.”
A batch of documents released by the Justice Department on January 30 showed how Ruemmler advised Epstein on lawsuits brought by his accusers and coordinated responses to journalists, including regarding a proposed network TV interview with a victim that never aired.
According to the files, Ruemmler at one point inquired about taking a trip to Epstein’s private island.
In January 2017, Ruemmler asked Epstein whether she could take a “day trip” to the island while she was traveling in the Caribbean. Later that year, after Hurricane Irma severely damaged the island, Ruemmler mused about traveling to the island to help Epstein clean up.
A Goldman Sachs spokesperson previously said Ruemmler never visited the island.
Ruemmler left the Obama White House in 2014 and went to work for Latham & Watkins as head of its white-collar defense group. The firm previously told CNN that Epstein was never a client. In 2020, Ruemmler joined Goldman Sachs and was later promoted to become the firm’s chief legal officer.
In a statement to CNN in December, she said, “I knew Jeffrey Epstein in a professional capacity when I served as head of the white collar defense group at Latham & Watkins, and he was a business referral source. I did not represent him and was not compensated by him. I was one of a number of lawyers Epstein informally reached out to for advice.”
Given that Ruemmler is appearing voluntarily, she will not be sworn in under oath. She will be reminded at the start of the interview, however, that making false statements to Congress is subject to criminal prosecution. Ruemmler is the panel’s 18th witness to appear for an interview as apart of the ongoing Epstein probe.
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